Ep.25 Small Scale Farming - Amanda Brezzell (Fennigan's Farms)

You're on the plants grow here podcast. I'm Daniel Fuller. Come along with me as we enter a hidden world of deep horticultural, ecological and landscape gardening knowledge with featured experts, industry professionals, and enthusiasts. A lot of people think that just because they live in an urban environment that they can't grow fresh fruit and veggies, but this isn't necessarily the case. In this episode, our guest is Amanda Brezzell. From Fennigan's farms in Detroit, who's going to explain how you can make the most of your space to supplement your diet or feed others with fresh fruit and veggies that you've grown in your front yard, backyard or any other small space that you have available? Welcome to the show. Amanda.
Thank you for having me.
Can you explain a little bit about your business and the services that you offer at Flanagan's farms? Absolutely.
So we are a family owned business, which we specialize in community development. And so that for us, we want to do that through agriculture. And so we do backyard, family and community gardens, greenhouses, farmers, markets and farm stands. And so we work with people from the beginning of their projects all the way to the end of the build and development, so that they can get set up growing their own fruits and vegetables
in their home or in their community. And can you explain your philosophy to us?
Absolutely. So we believe that every individual, it doesn't matter who they are, where they live, deserves to feed themselves in dignity. So we should not that that for us. But we believe that no one should be begging for food, no one should have access to rotting vegetables, right, everyone should have access to the foods that they need to live a healthy life. And so though it might be quite an ambitious mission, our mission, our philosophy is to just get people the tools that they need, so that they can enter into food serenity, and have more autonomy in their food and in their food system.
So how advantageous is it for people to actually be able to grow their own food in and our environment.
So we would say that it's incredibly advantageous just because having that having the say, in what is in your food, having a say in what you're eating, all of that really just plays into your food remedy. And so having the ability to know exactly where your food is coming from and know exactly what's on your plate, that is our biggest goal. So that's, that's huge for us. We think, you know, it's huge for anybody totally.
So what does food serenity mean?
So for us food, sovereignity means that it's just the right that every person has to healthy and culturally appropriate food that's produced in an ecologically sound and sustainable method. And so that way, individuals are able to define their own food and their own agricultural systems.
Right. So it is what it sounds like on the tin sort of thing of your sovereign over your own food.
That's awesome. So how does farming on a small scale differ from farming on a large scale, sort of in the broader sense?
I would say, well, just basic, you know, one's bigger than the other. But outside of that, too, you know, I believe that small scale farming really does allow for more, let's say, it allows for things to be more customized. So like with large scale farming, usually that's for profit, large profit or industrialized farming. And so it changes the way that we interact with our environment, it changes the way that we address land stewardship. And so with small scale farming, we're able to really scale it down and do a lot more in terms of working directly with the environment and working directly with the needs of those who will be benefiting from that small farm rather than focusing on just mass producing a certain crop.
So I think that what you're saying is that like, you can sort of take a lot more control over your land with a smaller farm, as opposed to with a larger one where you may only have a couple of crops, but I would have to decide in there that I think that in Australia, at least we have some really, really good, sort of our larger farms are really doing a lot better job than what they did in the past. And I think unfortunately, Australian farmers need more of a voice because they are doing some really good work on the large scale, and you wouldn't think it's possible. Yeah, I think it's awesome that you're able to take control of a smaller scale farm in the ways that you're describing.
Yeah, with us. It's so you know, I don't know the inner workings of food politics over in Australia, but I know over here, we just have so many issues in terms of selling all of our stuff to people and so when it comes to being privatized, then you know, it A large scale farm and although, you know, we can introduce all these different innovative and sustainable growing techniques, if the person who technically owns your land or owns your crops or owns your seeds or your soil or your pesticides, if they own any part of that, then you have to adhere to their guidelines. And so a lot of the times people, especially over here in the states will go with the smaller scale farming or organic farming, just because you don't have to stick with so many regulations that are coming from someone who's putting money into it.
So you're saying it's more empowering to have small scale farming, where more people are in control of a smaller amount of food.
Yeah, that and then just every component that goes into it as well. So you know, I'm not sure if your listeners are familiar with like, or some of the other big pesticide brands over here in the States, but they have a lot of control over what is grown and how it's grown. And there's a big, there's a lot of controversy about the brand itself just because of you know, different ways that they may control for how things are grown and not grown. So small scale farming definitely allows for a little bit more room in terms of being able to grow what you want, but it also has become a big livelihood for a lot of individuals here. So doing like you pick and allowing other people to visit your farm so that they can come and buy their own things. That is something that has sustained a lot of economies here in the United States, especially within the black community, as well. So that was something that actually brought a lot of African Americans out of poverty, after slavery was then being able to start their own small scale farms and have that generate local revenue.
It's very empowering what you're saying. I just wanted to make a note that Yeah, we will sort of block out the name, but people will know exactly who you're talking about.
Yeah, I was like, do you have a bleep sound by chance? I don't want to come after me in my sleep.
Yeah, very. So uh, you know, hey, if you're listening agent, you know if there's an agent? I don't want any smoke. No. Just leave me out of it. I
just literally small maybe one day.
Yeah, one day.
So I'll just make a little note of that. Yeah, we do just like to bleep out the brand name sometimes. But I think that people will know exactly what you're talking about. So what are some of the setups that do really well, in the smaller spaces?
Well, I would say definitely container gardening. So or set gardening like gardening and potato sex, I've seen really successful small scale, like indoor growing for people who have like apartments or maybe a loft and don't have outdoor space, we also have worked with different people who want it small greenhouses, or like small containers that were either in their home somewhere, maybe on their property somewhere. And then like a bigger version of that would just be you know, working with like no till methods are like no dig methods when it comes to setting up small raised bed gardens in and around someone's property. So I think that those definitely worked with beds, especially when we're talking about so like all of these methods you can control for what is in the soil. And so that's why I really like it. Because if you're just trying to start up and you're coming at it from maybe no knowledge, then you can, you can really go far with a good soil blend and a good compost, just doing it in a container because you can control for what's there and not have to deal with what may or may not be in the soil already.
You sort of isolated your biosphere, I suppose in a way.
Yeah. And so like, while we do a lot of work with making sure that people are in touch with the outdoors, it does get pretty cold here. And so we have a lot of people who want to grow all year round. And so we've kind of adapted a little bit for that just to make sure that we have setups for people to have. That's awesome.
I'm a huge fan of a no dig movement to as you sort of mentioned there that is awesome. Can you explain a little bit about what no dig means?
Yeah, so I've seen it used both ways. I know that a lot of our followers who are in the UK actually do they call it no dig and a lot of Southern black farmers that I've come in contact with actually call it in no till. So it's just really the same. Yeah, no, it's the same. It's I'm reaching the same market market and people but essentially, that is a way to, it's just a form of regenerative regenerative agriculture. And so instead of digging up and when working with the soil that's already there, you can do things like set up raised beds or set up different crops on top of the area that you already have. And then over the years of adding in fresh and clean soil, you actually do a lot with working with the soil that's already there and cleaning it and things like that. It's a really good way to help soil in certain areas. A really good way to control for your what's in the soil as well. Like I mentioned
Totally. So can you explain what a greenhouse is?
Yeah, yeah. So for us, I guess you could really do it in a number of different ways. We specifically build ours out of shipping containers, just because shipping containers are a big waste product. And we like to refurbish them for other uses. But a greenhouse is really just a controlled way for you to grow anything in and around that you want to grow. Um, some people use it for herbs, some people use it for produce, a lot of people have used it just to be able to grow all year long. It's just like a year round growing space, essentially.
So I guess it's sort of it's a bit, it'll warm things up a little bit more so than the outside where things might get a lot of frost and things like that, is that right?
And so if you were looking at a greenhouse on like an even bigger scale, you could call it like a hoop house, or even just like a total house, those things are all pretty much the same, because it uses that same method of using the natural gases that are inside to keep everything warm,
totally a bit of sunlight as well. So it gets trapped in there a bit like the greenhouse effect that they sort of talk about with the climate change as well.
Yeah, it's really cool. Like, especially with a lot of our designs, we will just take out basically take out a wall, we essentially just break the entire thing down so that there's enough sunlight to go in there. And then we use those same structures to create different things inside of the greenhouse. But yeah, we try to use all recycled materials, because it gives us a nice frame to use without having to start from the ground up.
I think that's really smart on a couple of levels. Number one is it's more environmentally friendly to be recycling things. So that's huge. And I think that that's incredibly important as we move into the 21st century to be keeping that in mind. And I think number two, there's a larger and larger market for people who are looking to be working with companies that are thinking in that way as well. So I think you're really setting yourself up really good for the future here.
Yeah, the one the biggest thing that we actually want to move into coming in 2021. And beyond that is with right now. So we already know we do vacant lot reclamation, so we have a lot of like neighborhoods that have been divested. So we will go there and help them turn their plots of land into community gardens. But one thing that we really want to do is start working with old office buildings and or just old spaces that we can reclaim to grow food inside of so that's like our biggest goal.
Right? Can you explain a little bit about how that's relevant in the city of Detroit especially?
Yeah, so one word that you might hear when you're looking into urban areas, especially if you're like the city of Detroit, or even Chicago is the word polite vl DHT. There's a lot of community activists that I've worked with don't really like the word blight, because basically just means that this is like a natural thing that's happened and you know, like blight on your tomato plant, sorry, this is just like a, some a bad thing that's happened out of nowhere that you can't control. But what really has happened is a lot of our neighborhoods just don't get money invested into them. And so that leaves a lot of like I mentioned land that is not being taken care of homes that aren't being taken care of other things that other buildings that you might not, you know, that might be vacant now. And so all of that really plays into what we do. So when we're looking at that, we're able to come in and say, Okay, we have a lot of people who might want to go and buy land in an area or they might want to go buy a new home area, but they just need help setting that up, or they need decide that oh, this is an old home here that I've decided to refurbish to turn into a small scale farm here, those are things that we can really jump in and help with, those are things that we can give people tools to do something with just because it's it's a big thing to re revamp our communities. You know, it's all about community development going into places post disaster. So that's what how I like to think of it is like in the same way that international development goes into a place post natural or manmade disaster, or they might go in for some big humanitarian effort. While we might not consider this a gigantic humanitarian effort, this is community development. And this is a way for us to refurbish places that have had a lot of interest taken out of them. So this is a really good way for us to do that. Because we can help stimulate the local economy, as well as give people the tools that they need or assist people in getting the tools that they need so that they can have full autonomy over the food that they're putting into their bodies as well.
So these are really unused spaces that people are coming in and sort of claiming for their own. are they paying for these places? Or are they just saying hey, this is not being used, and I'm going to use this space?
Oh, no, yeah, they're playing, they're paying for them. So a lot of old homes or a lot of spaces that need to be refurbished will just go up in terms of on like a bidding system. And so you know, they'll start the bidding at a certain amount, and then whoever is able to afford it, then you know, they can come in and purchase that. There's also other regulations as well, trying to maintain that people who already live in this city are able to buy that property. And it's not just like going outside of the local economy as well. So there's all the things that go on to it is that so much like first come first serve, but to an extent equal?
Who's this by the way?
Oh, sorry, this is my dog, Graham.
Hey, Kitty, Graeme,
is about 11 years old. So he's a little grumpy.
And that's not Finnegan that the business is named after
no fitting in is downstairs somewhere, I think he's taking in that.
So you were sort of saying that people are using local people are bidding on these properties using a bidding process to sort of work together to buy up these properties so that it stays within the local economy.
Yeah, and so for some people, they want to use that for food. So that's kind of where we jump in. But we have a number of other people who just want a home or just want land or you know, one, an office building to start up their own business, things like that.
Nothing. That's incredible. So let's switch up a little bit now. And let's talk about how can animals help you make the most of your small space,
I think that on a broad scale, they can definitely help with pests, so or unwanted guests. I'll say that on when it gets because we live in an ecosystem. And so to call something a pest feels a little wrong, just because that whatever it is that you're calling a pest has a job. It's just doing its job in mind, that is probably not only wanted, um, so it can definitely help with unwanted visitors in your space. I know that a lot of small scale farmers are now moving into just animal husbandry in terms of like having chickens or maybe ducks on their property. I haven't gotten into that beyond just taking care of my dogs. But I know that like having chickens and things like that on your property. That's something that's gotten really popular in the last couple of years.
Yeah, I think chicks and ducks is awesome. If you like the taste of duck eggs that is but um, yeah, you know, you can eat eggs, or you can eat the animal. And I also provide manure that you can sort of either tilled into the soil or just I guess, well, I don't know, if you'd necessarily want it to write down on the soil, you might collect it, and then have a compost pile where you're sort of brought that down. But yeah, they can be incredibly beneficial to the soil health. And as you say, they'll sort of pluck the pests of the of the plants because that's a good food source for for chickens and ducks.
Yeah, we have I'm trying to think I was in touch with one farmer who just introduced goats to their property to help with controlling you know, the grass in the area and helping with manure as well. So that's one thing. And then I have some family friends who actually just got some goats for just because they wanted goats.
Did they eat everything yet? My dad has a story about that they got a goat and his mom, my grandma always says, never get goats because they would eat absolutely everything that eat your clothes off the line. Yeah,
I spent the summer actually over in the San Francisco, California area. And they were using goats there to protect eat up all the dead grass before the wildfires came through. So that was actually really cool. But we would go and look at the goats because you know, it was quarantine, we couldn't do anything. But we would go up to the park and just watch the goats graze for hours. Hmm.
They're really cool, weird looking critters when you look at him in the eye, aren't they? So some people might have a disability and they might think that gardening isn't available to them? What are some tips and tricks that you might have for people who could be in wheelchairs or have other disabilities that can get them back into the garden? Yes,
so whenever we work with anyone who is differently abled, we always want to make sure that it's 100% assessable for them. So in the same way that I'm going to work with someone who is just once a custom garden, then we want to make sure that anyone who might not be able to bend over or move quickly is able to get in and out of their space. And so some of the ways that we've adapted for that is making higher raise beds. So that there it requires less bending, one thing that I've actually been looking into our adjustable hydroponic sets, setups. And so that's kind of like you just walk over to a crane, essentially, and it brings to you, you know, each of your shelves essentially and then you can work in that way. I'm not sure if I'm describing it perfectly, but it's kind of just like a wheel and you're able to bring your whatever it is that you're growing, you know right up front to you.
So that's really cool.
Yeah, so it's, it's interesting. What I really want to do is be able to take that same design and do it with with like garden beds, but that's super heavy. So we're trying to figure out how we want to do that but use soil in doing it but right now adjustable hydroponics is probably one of the bigger things just because you know that allows for indoor growing, you could set up a ramp if need be the last thing I would say is just working with ways to make the surface in the garden flat. So if you're using like a no till method or something like that, then you kind of can't fully control for a space that's not flat. So incorporating things like not necessarily concrete, but you know, wooden boards or you know, some sort of walkway so that if someone was moving through the space on wheels, they're able to do
so with the nitrile method, the grounds gonna have lumps and bumps in it just as the soil biology and the chemistry just does, what it does in some parts is going to be flatter and some parts are going to be higher. So that's very interesting. So can you tell me a little bit about the climate over there in Detroit, what sort of plants do well there and how do you find the weather,
so I personally am not a fan of Michigan weather, but that's just because I do not like being cold, and it is cold, like four to five months out of the year here. So usually, like from November to March, it's pretty cold snow rainy, we just had like an ice rain storm the other day, so it can get pretty cold. But the summer, the spring is beautiful, the Fall is beautiful, and the summer is hot. And so you get you do definitely get all four seasons. And Michigan itself is surrounded by fresh water. And so we have a lot like our climates just a little bit different from some of our surrounding states. And then we also have like our upper peninsula that's surrounded by water. So that growing climate is actually very different. I think there's zone six, I'm sorry, zone four and we're all the way at zone six on the Lower Peninsula. So mostly like I said, it's pretty cold and then it warms up but Michigan itself just across the board grows a lot of corn, soybeans, apples, orchards are a really big thing especially in the fall like if you're from Michigan, you know that once like September October hits, you're gonna probably spend every weekend at an apple orchard or you know, picking pumpkins, gourds, things like that. But outside of that, especially in the summer we grow a lot of fruit like berries. So like blackberries, blueberries, cherries, I believe one of one of our cities your Traverse City, Michigan, I believe is like the cherry capital of the world just because they grow a lot of cherry so a lot of you'll see a lot especially with small scale farms Here you see a lot of like you pick, you know, come in and pick your own
that just berries we go with the whole family every year. You can probably tell I'm super excited. But
I love Jerry's.
Yeah, it's it's like the best because we'll go and get like one weekend we'll go and get just like pounds and pounds of strawberries. The next weekend, we'll get pounds and pounds of blueberries and then we'll drive three, you know, three hours to go get you know, pounds of cherries. So lots and lots of fruit. They make a lot of fruit wine here as well. Fruit one,
cherry one and stuff like that.
Yeah, one of my favorites is blueberry wine. It's pretty good.
Wow. So does it actually tastes like blueberries? or?
Yeah, I would say especially on things like, would you like cranberry wine, that's that's going to give you more of like a bitter taste. And then we usually infuse a lot of our berries with honey. So we've got a lot of honey, Michigan itself is just a really big agricultural state, we are part of the Midwest. And so that's pretty much all we do is pump out food we make up I believe, like 11% of the United States agriculture revenue. So lots and lots of fruits and veggies being pumped out of Michigan all year long,
which is a surprise because as you say you've got those two extremes. So yeah, that's pretty cool to hear. Yeah, they
definitely take advantage of the the growing seasons here, you're gonna see pretty high yields pretty fertile place. Okay,
and what sort of soils Do you tend to work with in your small gardens?
So one thing that I've actually noticed more recently is seeing a lot of soil that has a lot of clay in it and I think that might be what is driving a lot of our the people that we are connected with to do no till and no dig just because they can't quite work with the soil. But outside of that, I believe it's a pretty it's kind of a sandy soil. And I think that's just because we're coming off. We're surrounded by beaches, so there's a lot of sand in the soil but still fertile.
My business partner, Ben Sims lives in Perth, where it's quite literally beach sand a lot of the time is no loam in it, there's no clay, no silt, it's just sand. So
yeah, yeah, definitely the closer in when you go you're going to find more of that, you know those that extra but yeah, especially around the coast, you're going to get a more sandy soil.
Yeah, cool. And do you tend to work with the sores that are naturally there? Or do you bring in your own stuff for the small scale farms,
we do our best to work with what's already there. We you know, we'll do like our soil sampling though. And if it's just like really acidic, then we'll recommend specific things to kind of like combat that acidity. But that's all you know, that all comes with just like hey, I need to set up a garden. And so we talk about just like okay, your soil was very acidic or yours Soil is very basic. So these might be the things that you want to start with growing, because these might be the things that are easier for you to grow with the type of soil that you have. And then we kind of introduce other things, what we want to do is be able to have everybody be able to grow things where they're at. And so, you know, sometimes you don't aren't going to have the ability to bring in soil from other places. And it's expensive to and it's probably more ecologically sound to work with what you've got going on there already.
So how do you keep the soil is healthy and productive there.
So we mostly just do a lot of intercropping. So one year, we'll do core, and then the next year, we'll do soybeans to add to the soil, what the corn took out, things like that. So a lot of intercropping happens in and around this area, different yields based on the year just so that we can give back to the soil.
Can you explain the term intercropping? to anyone who hasn't heard that term before?
Yes, with intercropping, that is just the ability to sometimes, okay, so I kind of mix it up, because there's two ways that I think about intercropping. So you can do or I believe interplanting is the other method as well. So you kind of just focus on either growing to two things at the same time, that are in close proximity to each other, that will will help benefit each other. So kind of like oh, buddy planting or planting, you know, yeah, buddy planting or you can grow things every other year that will add or take things from the soil so that the next year you can go back to growing whatever it was that you're growing. And it does it in a way that keeps the soil healthy, huh?
Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So I don't know if this is something you'd be able to answer. And if you don't want to answer it, that's fine. But what sort of plants do you find tend to work well together? Oh, yes,
I love buddy planting. So you can call it buddy planting can call it companion planting, I call it buddy planting just because it's like giving your each of your crops a little buddy. And so what I like to the two of the things that I like to plant together are beets and cabbage. And I plant the two of them together because the cabbage will help enrich the soil. And they will give the beets everything that they need to grow without them having to leech a lot of their nutrients just from the soil, so they help each other. Also, my mother loves both beets and cabbage, and so they never. And then another thing you can do is carrots and onions because onions will help repel carrot flies. And I know like things like kameel. And like if you play kameel and onions together, it helps to improve the flavor of the onions. And then celery and garlic actually do that to each other as well because garlic will act as like a natural antifungal. So you'll actually if you're looking at my garden, you'll see garlic planted either around the border or throughout just because it helps as a natural antifungal.
That's very interesting. I come from subtropical Queensland. And so a lot of people talk about the main one that I've heard in a very different type of climate is the tomatoes and basil. And apparently they both help each other out with the flavor as well there. So yeah, I don't imagine you grow too many tomatoes down there, up there rather.
Not really. I mean, you can my tomatoes I can admit did really bad this year, they just were not I don't know that they got everything that they needed when they were little. And so once they grew huge, but they didn't really produce a lot of fruit. And then maybe a week, a week or two before I saw some smaller, like little fruit coming on there. I came outside and all of my tomato plants were covered in blight. So I don't know what happened with the tomatoes. But I'll try again next year.
Yeah, you couldn't stop them in tropical Queensland. I'll tell you that. Maybe it's a heat thing. Yeah, yeah. And they'd live all year round too. So in Melbourne, where I've been living for the last sort of few years, that's a bit colder. And a lot of the time they'll sort of plant them through the summer and then they'll let them die off through the winter and treat them as an annual crop. But yeah, in Queensland, they'll last all year round, some variety doing that all varieties are different, you can't really talk about sort of a one size fits all when it comes to a plant like a tomato plant. So has COVID-19 changed the way you think or act in the gun?
A little bit. I think for us, it has turned more into so gardening for me has always been therapeutic. But I don't think I realized how much I rely on having a deep connection to the earth until this year. And how that plays into like my own spirituality or anything like that. I just was not really thinking about that, you know, gardening and farming, things like that. I've been in my family for generations. And I think because it's been in my family for so long. It's just been something that I've done, but it became like a part of me this year in a way that I didn't think was really going to happen because I had to spend a lot of time just you know, either in my garden alone or you know, not being able to hire helpful things like that, you know, it's changed a lot of how I rely on my connection to the earth.
I think a lot of people listening will be able to relate to that.
Yeah, and one of my favorite, I just said, one of the people that I'm most inspired by, she mentioned that there is a, there's an exchange of energy when you touch your hand to the to the earth, you know, and that I think a lot of people found that spark this year. So that's interesting. I know, I definitely read maybe refound it, or who discovered it, but I'm holding that a lot closer than I did this time last year.
I think I believe that because in lockdown we had during COVID, Melbourne had eight weeks of lockdown. And that's a long time. And we were allowed to go out for a walk for an hour each day and my wife and I would sort of go for a walk around and cheer to get a little bit embarrassed because I'd take my shoes off every day. And I'd walk through you know, we'd walk through the park and then we'd walk up the main street and I just loved having my feet in the ground. And I sort of became quite addicted to that. And now I've stopped wearing my shoes a lot. Sort of wear them a lot less these days.
Take your shoes off. Or people take your shoes off and go walk outside. You know, to the sun go from like your toes all the way up, like have that experience everyday.
Yep, feel the grass, feel the soil. Even the concrete feels nice.
Yeah. When my siblings and I were little we used to go outside barefoot all the time, but we had a rosebush. And so my parents would always tell us like don't go outside without your shoes on because there's a rosebush. But we're like, no, we're connected. We have to so that was a big thing until the day that I actually got a rose Thorn stuck in my foot.
That changed everything to it. So now I'm a little bit more cautious when I walk outside. But yeah, take your shoes off. Yeah, we got bindeez, we used to have bindeez growing up in Queensland. I don't know if you know what that is. They're sort of like they're like a little ground covering thing similar to like a clover, I guess. But they have a little bendy thorny little, sort of a fruiting body. It's like a seed pod or something like that, I guess. And I think it's designed to sort of stick to animal first, but when they get stuck in your foot, yeah, you really know.
Yeah, yes, you definitely know it.
So is there anything else that most people don't know about farming in a small space? Amanda?
I think the biggest thing is that it's so possible. grain, you know, so many people do it. So you know, of course, it's got to be possible. But I think when you're starting out yourself, I don't know if I can do this? And the answer that is yes, you can. That's the big thing is like you can do this. And I think the more innovative, the more fun it is, you know, you might not think you have to resources. But if you really, you know, look around and say oh, maybe I can grow in this. Or maybe I can have a small piece of land. So maybe I want to grow vertically or something like that, just like coming up with different ways to sustain yourself. I think that that's like the most fun. So it's definitely possible. That's the biggest thing.
Absolutely. And it doesn't have to be big either. Like you say, like, you might just have a small herb garden, sort of a few Herbes in a pot on your sunny kitchen window. And that's enough just to get started.
Yes, that is enough, for sure.
So Amanda, is there anything else that you'd like our listeners to know about?
Absolutely, definitely want people to know that they can connect with us, we'd love to help consult, even if you know you're on the other side of the world, we might not be able to come set up a garden for you. But we can definitely help in terms of designing it for you and getting you started. So if you have questions, but beyond that, I want people to continue with the hope that I think we all found in 2020. So I know it was like a, you know, a really bad year for a lot of people. And you know, you know, over here in the United States, we're still dealing with the virus. But a lot of us, like I mentioned, we found that hope, again, we found that that space, we found the ability to connect with the earth again. And so I would really just say grab that. And hold on to that. Because I think that as we move into this next year, and as we continue through life, we need to hold on to something that will keep our mind and our communities focused on what we can do in the future and focused on what is possible around us. And so you know, food serenity is possible. Starting the small scale farm is possible. All of that keep that hope alive. That's the biggest thing for me for sure, that always want to spread that.
What a beautiful message. And I want everybody to know that in a post 2020 world. We're living in a location independent world where it's never been easier to sort of contact and work with people all around the world. So if you like someone and you believe in their message, I think you should work with them
no matter where they are. Absolutely, yeah, yeah,
we were opening worldwide connections.
Let's do it.
Totally. Thanks for coming on, Amanda.
Thanks for having me.
Today However, it is possible to grow fresh fruit and veggies on a small parcel of land. If you still don't quite believe in yourself, I definitely do recommend reaching out to Amanda and the team to get some professional help and guidance to get you properly set up. Also pop onto Twitter and follow Finnegans farms and plants grow here. Would you like to be a guest on the plants grow hear podcast, Ben and I are always looking for potential guests who are able to provide our listeners with serious value. Check the show notes for relevant links. You mentioned the term food serenity there. Can you explain what that means? Yeah, so
actually, I'm sorry, I think I might have
mumbled a little bit but it's the term food sovereignty sovereignty. So look sovereign
serenity, I like food, serenity, I want to have food serenity. I want to not worry when my periods coming from. But okay, so what does food sovereignty?
I will say I think maybe you come to come to the first from going through the ladder. I guess maybe having everything that you need will bring that serene feeling for us foods overnight. It really just means that you have a say in where your food is coming from, you know what you're eating, you know, essentially you have a say in all of your food, having the autonomy in your food,
you're suffering over your food, and that's awesome. I think that everybody should have that. I think you're absolutely right.

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